What a conversation that has been happening about homosexuality! For those who have been following along, WOW, huh?! I know! Well, my friend Matt asked me in his last comment what my definition of sexual immorality is. I began answering it as another comment, then thought, "heck, how about I just be that 'controversial blogger' for awhile." So, here goes...
First, let me just say that while I am pretty sure that God may very well give the okay for homosexual relationships, that He doesn't give the okay for homosexual sex outside of marriage...just like He doesn't for heterosexual sex outside of marriage. And this obviously poses a problem for homosexual Christians, because in most states it is not yet legal for them to marry. So, next comes my "definition' of marriage.
Actually, my mom and I just talked about this very question. I guess a vague answer that I would say to Matt's original question is that sexual immorality is a sexual act outside of what God has given you blessing to act upon. This may be different actions for different people.
Okay, NOW come my thoughts on marriage. One of the cool things about God is that He knows us better than anyone else - even ourselves. He goes straight to out heart and knows us very deep. I believe He ultimately judges our heart...not our checklists or rights and wrongs. So, marriage...are we married when we are committed in our hearts to another person or when we check off everything on our checklist, 1.) ceremony 2.) priest/pastor/judge/"by the power vested in me" 3.) ring on the finger 4.) one witness to sign the papers 5.) marriage certificate??
There is a man and a woman who have been 'partners' for over 20 years. They live together, share family, holidays, love, sexual relations, etc. They are and have been fully committed to one another for all of these years. Is their sex life one of sexual immorality? I believe not. In their hearts, these two are married...more married than a lot of actual married people I know!
There is a man and a woman who have been married for 5 years. He is committed to her in love, friendship, sexual acts, etc. She is committed on the outside, but her heart is somewhere else...and with someone else. Is their sex life one of sexual immorality? For him, I would think not, but for her, I would suggest that she is being sexually immoral when engaging in sexual activity with her husband. There is no love or commitment involved.
(Side note: both are true stories of couples I know.)
This is why I have a hard time with the whole checklist mentality. I don't believe God has a check list. He doesn't have the rules that we think He does. He has a heart for His children - us. HE KNOWS our hearts. Sometimes we think we know someone and their intentions way more than we actually do. That's when we start to point fingers with our list of dos and don'ts. I know I've pointed fingers at inappropriate times. I know people have done the same to me. It's done nothing but hurt, not help.
If we are truly seeking God and His will for us as sexual beings, He will let us know what we can and cannot do to remain sexually moral people.
One more quick thought I have...let's say there is a woman pastor who knows without a doubt that God has called her to the ministry - to lead and pastor a body of Christ followers. Who am I (or anyone else) to say to her, "Don't you know what the Bible says about women in ministry? You must have misheard God - He would never have called you to that. You're wrong!" Similarly, who am I to say to a gay Christian, "What? God has given you His blessing to marry this other man? He never would have blessed that. You must have misheard God. You're wrong!"
If we understood God completely, the world would be a very different place. But, we DON'T! He is almighty, and so far beyond our comprehension - there's no way I can wrap my brain around it all. So, since I believe God doesn't have a checklist (aside from the ten commandments), who am I to judge what others are doing as right or wrong? GOD sees into their hearts, not ME!
So, now come the comments, I guess. What are YOUR thoughts and definitions on sexual immorality?
I'm a frugal Momma these days....
15 years ago
19 comments:
Ang - I can't help laughing, because I was very recently in an uproar at another blog, where a commenter was suggesting Sarah Palin should not be running for VP since God has called women to be at home, and God would never call her to such a position when she has young children.
Maybe we can tackle that controversy next - LOL.
I wish you were still here in PA, because you and I share a lot of the same thoughts and I'd love to be in small group again and dive into these topics! I nodded along to this entire post. My perspective is from a place of prayer, thought, study...just as yours is, and I appreciate you sharing why you believe the way you do.
Tough subject here, Angela. Not because we can't figure out if sexual immorality is wrong, but because we can't even agree on what it, IS. It seems like such an easy topic there wouldn't even be a discussion. But yet even in your post I found myself scratching my head wondering if you grew up in the same Nazarene church I did. (Which might be the real problem now that I think about it. LOL!) You make claims of belief that rock my world, and us Christians probably do the same to those looking in from the outside.
My point is, is there even a solution to this thing? Is there a answer to the tough questions? Or are we always going to end up at this same empasse since we all breath different air and pump different blood? Please know I'm not trying to stifle this conversation, because I think it's an important one. But as I get older I guess I personally get tired of arguing the type of points that will never be resolved.
In BOB two weeks ago (and other times in the past) we got into a hefty debate over women versus men and what roles each should take. I found myself unable to disprove either side's arguments based on the facts and scriptures they presented. But both can't be right at the same time one is right and one is wrong. Which ends up making none right and none wrong. So, wow, what's the point of arguing a battle that can have no winners and no losers?
Many times I get the, "Stand for something or you'll fall for anything" slam when I voice this concern. But I can't get away from the fact that fighting causes anger which decreases love. And I want to, I mean really really want to, be all about love. Do I have opinions? You bet I do! And I'm aware that those opinions can cause a lot of pain and hurt if not shared correctly. (Ask Dave about my hands theory.)
I fully agree with you on some points you wrote but fully disagree on others. I know your inner desire is to show love and shy away from judgementalism, so I join with you in that and firmly denounce sexual immorality. Too broad? Sorry.
can you then define a biblicial marriage? If we can be married in our hearts, then what is marriage?
Sam, I really like your response to this, and I think you're absolutely right. There is no right or wrong on some of these things, so this just serves to get people worked up. It's been helpful for me to express these things for myself, really. I think I did grow up in the same Nazarene Church that you did, but over the past year or so God has brought me on a journey in a direction I didn't anticipate. He opened my eyes to things, and changed my heart about some stuff. (I surprise myself constantly with the way I believe now.) It was helpful for me to write stuff down so that I know what I believe - not to convince anyone else, but to make sure I feel the way I do, and that God is really the one opening my eyes to these things. I am definitely okay disagreeing with people on these issues - we are all on a journey...not one further than anyone else, just on different roads. I think God is pleased with me about where I am and what I believe. I also think God is pleased with Matt or Jan or Steven or you, Sam, where you all are, even though we're all in different places. What He is pleased with, I believe, is that we are seeking His face and desiring to serve and love Him and His creation. We'll never ever know or have all the right answers, but what we do have is the power of the Holy Spirit to love others as He desires us to, and to serve God in all that we do.
So, I'm tired of the back and forth and ready to go back to posting about my cute kids and the funny things they do and say. Perhaps these discussions are for other times and other places - or maybe not.
also, if what you defined in your blog is your view on marriage, than what is divorce?
I hit "publish your comment" and slightly regretted it. As soon as I reread my words I realized my thoughts could be a downer to an otherwise great conversation. I apologize for that.
For what it's worth, I have loved the "controversial" posts you've been throwing up lately. I love the cute kid stories and the Jon-isms, but it's been great to see inside your brain and hear your heart. We may not know each other all that well, but these posts have opened up my image of Angela to a whole new level. Good stuff.
(BTW, I'm curious to see your answers to Matt's questions.)
Angela,
Sexual immorality is any sexual act that violates God's plan for human sexuality as we understand it through God's revealed revelation to us the Scripture as supported by Holy tradition in the Church. It is clear that the only plan God has for human sexuality is in the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman.
People can be committed to each other and love each other, but that does not make it a marriage. Remember the Samaritan woman at the well and what Jesus said to her. "...for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband..."
I understand why you and others like Jan R. fell the way you do. But I have to say that your view of marriage is not a very biblical one and reduces marriage to a personal philosophy of what makes one married. It is a very slippery slop when we try to redefine marriage according to our own feelings, as well-meaning and kind as we might be.
Now what makes a good marriage that is a whole other post.
Just living with someone for 20-30 years does not make one married no matter how loving and committed a couple might be.
Departing from the Jewish and Christian understanding of marriage will only lead to more sexual immorality.
Peace in Christ,
Steven
oh, how I long to know who Pastor Steven is........?
If you feel like revealing yourself, you can do it at mwchewning@yahoo.com
I'm at work where I have zero availability to anything Bible, so I need some help here. Where are the exact scriptures that detail marriage? I can remember a lot that reference man and woman, cleaving to one another, make her his husband, etc., but do any of those lay out marriage?
Curiously awaiting those not at work under the false security of a firewall.
I am working on a comment for later...
But for now, I just wanted to say that what I've read trying to figure more out about the whole marriage and the Bible stuff is that there isn't anything in the Bible to support there being a ceremony of any kind. Marriage was when a man payed a dowry to a father, when they signed a covenant, when the two made a commitment to God, and when they had sex in front of witnesses (well, the witnesses would wait outside for the deed to be done). Sorry Matt, I'm giving you no scripture references at this point. But, many marriages were arranged and not out of love at all. Many marriages were polygamous. Things were a whole lot different than what we know as marriage today in the western world (but perhaps not so different from many developing nations).
Just some thoughts for the moment...
You answered what I thought, Angela. If you're correct that there are none besides what you mentioned, I find it interesting people spout and preach and pursue teaching about the ethics/morals of Biblical marriage. Is that what we really want? We often have old people come into the bank and complain they want the "old days" of banking back. I wonder what they liked best, the subordinate pay for women in like jobs, the double-digit mortgage rates, the lack of security in check cashing. My point is that people only see and remember what they want to remember.
That said, I still think there needs to be a public commitment but I highly doubt it's the whacked-out money pit we make it these days. And just because you throw a mention or two of God into the proceedings does not make them more holy than a couple meeting with God in a field and declaring their love "under God."
Just some thoughts...
The N.T. does not give us a lot of details about the Jewish wedding, but we know that it began with the betrothal a legally binding contract... Matthew 1:18. "Which could last up to a year." We also know it was a public event...John 2:1. There was a feast and wine and guests. It was a public commitment to live together as husband and wife. 1 Corinthians 7 talks about christian marriage and divorce but not the wedding.
We know that Hebrews 14:4 says..."Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulators God will judge." Even from N.T.times marriage has been seen as a covenant relationship between one man and one woman. It has always been understood as a morally binding covenant relationship made in the presence of witnesses in the sight of God. Good conversation all!
My blogger password is working so you can find out more about "pastor Steven" Matt & all.
Peace in Christ,
Steven
Steven, thanks so much for your last comment. You're right, it does seem as though back in the day, weddings were long, public events, much as they are now. (I will mention, though, that the example you use from John 1 could be any wedding from any time period - it's not much of an argument for a marriage ceremony being biblical - this passage is much more about Jesus' miracle turning water to wine.)
I find it interesting when searching for biblical thoughts on marriage to go back to even the first mention of husband and wife in the Bible, which was Adam and Eve. In chapter 2, God decided it wasn't good for man to be alone, and then in verse 24 says, "...a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." In the first husband and wife relationship, there is no mention of any covenant or witnesses - just of them having sex. God simply blessed this and it was done. Interesting.
This is what I've really been wanting to get out. Sam mentioned that he liked being in my head a little bit. If you could really see in there, so many of my thoughts at the moment are gray, while for my entire life they have been black and white. I grew up in the Nazarene Church with all the "answers" to everything...all the rules. No drinking, no dancing, no sex before marriage, no homosexuality, etc. All the answers were there with not much to explain everything. It was though I had all the answers, but only because my pastors and my parents had the same answers, and because the manual said so, too. For the past 20 or so years, I was what I was and believed what I believed simply because of tradition - Nazarene tradition. Finally, God smacked me over the head, and I woke up. I started to learn things for myself and explore my faith, and who God created ME to be...not all Christians, or even all Nazarenes - just ME. And then over this past year, God has opened up a whole new world of faith to me. He spoke to me very clearly in a dream, which He had never done before and I had previously been very skeptical of. He showed me that this tradition I had come from seemed to have all the answers, but really those answers and rules were inaccurate, and it wasn't the place he wanted me (and our family) to be. He was leading us in a new direction and the only answer we really need right now, the only black and white truth, is JESUS. The rest seems to be gray. So, in my defending the homosexual lifestyle, and the idea that 'marriage' may be more a binding contract with two people before God in their hearts, than a signed document, is just that I DON'T have the black and white answers for those things, and I would suggest that no one does. As anonymous mentioned in a response to Matt's blog, there are core values and non-core values. The summary of the core values is JESUS, where there aren't necessarily straight up answers for those non-core values and beliefs.
Having said that, do I think marriage is probably easiest to stick with when made public? Sure, probably. But, in the end, I believe God does look at the motives of our hearts. Paul points this out nicely in 1 Corinthians 4:1-5. He says in verse 5, "...He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts." (we might refer to the married couples I know where the wife was not committed to the husband, and where the "unwed" couple was committed to one another for 20+ years.) Also, I like Jesus' words in Luke 16 when he is telling the parable of the shrewd manager and he says in verse 15, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts."
We Christians can certainly live by the law of this land and culture and have a ceremony to marry our one spouse, while Christians in other countries can live by the laws of their land and culture and marry 13 year old girls, and have as many wives as they want. The bottom line for me in this circumstance, and in any of the gray-non-core value circumstances is that God sees what's in our hearts.
Do I have the answers? No. Do I think I ever will? No. Do I have opinions based on what I've read, studied and prayed about? Sure, but with the understanding that with continued reading, study and prayer that those may change at some point. I think if we convince ourselves that we've got it all figured out, that we leave little room for God to move, change and grow in us.
Matt, we haven't really heard your thoughts on this whole thing...
Angela,
I agree, God is not bound by the laws of man nor are all the laws of man Godly. One thing I think you are on to here is that marriage has become to much of a legal issue and a state issue. I think we would be much better off looking at Christian marriage as a sacrament a means of grace between a man and a woman. I think legal marriage is a good thing, it protects the rights of those who are married whether secular or sacred. In the USA there are common law marriages there are secular marriages and there are sacred marriages. Yes I believe there is a difference.
In Matthew 19:1-9 we see Jesus saw marriage as morally binding for life with one exception adultery and even that did not have to end the marriage. In verse 6.) Jesus says...What GOD has joined together, let no man separate." Clearly Jesus sees marriage as morally binding in the eyes of God. Regardless of the type of wedding ceremony. I'm sorry I had to laugh a little because a lot of guys would love to skip the ceremony and just have sex. Yes CotN pastors have a sense of humor! Of course Adam and Eve were the first people on earth so there was just them and God and it was before sexual immorality. It was only after sin entered the world that we have sexual sin. How ever in the N.T. we see that marriage is more clearly defined by Jesus and the scripture as being a life long commitment. Not based on feelings or emotions because they come and go. I would like to ask you about the couple who have lived together 20+ years. Are they Christians and have they committed them selves to each other as husband and wife in the Lord?
Peace in Christ,
Steven
To me it feels as though some of the people here are trying to put God in a box. God is NOT the New Testament or the Old Testament. God is God and only God should be the focus. Yet we are spending so much time telling everyone what is wrong with their lives. Why is it of value to some of you if YOU feel that someone else is being sexually immoral? Here's my thinking and you can poo-poo it if you want. But I will say that it is accurate for me...and it's taken me a lot of prayer to get to this.
My faith is exactly that...it's MINE. My relationship with God is exactly that...it's MINE. So as with everything, there are going to be things in life that are OK for you and not OK for me. Such as? Well, I have a drinking problem...so maybe it is OK for you to have a drink with dinner and thats all, or a glass of champagne at a wedding...does that affect your relationship with God or your faith? No, I don't think so. If I were to go out and drink, that would affect my relationship and my faith. However, if I am in a committed relationship with a man (even though it is legal here to be married) and I am completely dedicated to and desire to spend my life with this person, is it IMMORAL for me to make love to my husband/SO? Also, I have a few questions for you to ponder...can you please tell me where in the bible it says that homosexuals are bad? If you can find it in a bible that is published before 1946 I'll give you a million dollars cuz it's not there. :) I duno if this made any sense. I'm not angry with people here for your words or your thoughts, I simply feel sorry that you are putting God in a box and saying that the relationship that 2 men or 2 woman may have together can not be glorifying to God. Angela, you have been a beacon for me, and you have consistently told me that you feel bad that I am judged in the way that I am. I encourage you, darling, if you're going to feel sorry for anyone, feel sorry for those people who put God in the box. The truth is, I could NEVER fit God in a box. Thanks Angela for being my friend, no matter what.
Yes! Your blog is great, and I know something about the night elves, they are the race I WOW power leveling when I get my first account:The reclusive Night Elves power leveling[ were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft Power Leveling. These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years before Warcraft I. The Night Elves' reckless use of magic drew the Burning Legion into the world and led to a catastrophic war between the two titanic races. The Night Elves barely managed to banish the Legion from the world, but their wondrous homeland was shattered and drowned by the sea. I love this race and suggested everyone that start their WOW power leveling a rogue or druidof night elf
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