http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf
I want to thank both Jan and Matt for the time and energy that they put into their responses about my last post. I was expecting "the debate" about homosexuality to begin at some point after what I wrote in my last blog, and it did. (That's a good thing, and certainly not a bad thing!) We all have different opinions. For me, I guess, the bottom line is that I am not convinced that practicing homosexuality is a sin in and of itself, and therefore will not judge a practicing homosexual as a person living in sin. The link I put above is a great resource for anyone trying to figure out where they stand on homosexuality and the Bible. I'll warn you, it's not a short read, but it's INCREDIBLY interesting, and I would encourage anyone to read it. (I especially like the fourth and fifth premises.)
Let's keep talking!
I'm a frugal Momma these days....
15 years ago
23 comments:
hey ang! thanks so much for posting this! like everyone else, i have been disgusted by the way christians have made homosexuality into the mother of all sins. enough said on that.
i found this article to be very helpful and cause for some excellent conversation. it gives me a lot to think about, that's for sure.
the author could not have been more correct when he stated that it is for God to judge. we are Christ's body and as such, we are agents of mercy and grace, not condemnation.
thanks again for posting this.
thanks ang :) I love this. I'm so proud of you for opening dialogue...and I can only hope that I have been a positive influence of a Christian man who just happens to be gay. Thanks SO much, Angela. I needed this.
That is also my hope, Dennis, as a Christian is that I can make a positive change in this world in the name of Jesus. Thanks for being proud of me :). It's not an easy topic to bring up as a discussion - tends to be controversial, as I'm sure you are well aware. Glad you found my site.
Wow! I can not believe those people at 'Soul Force' are so blind to the truth of God's Word and what the Church has believed for over 2000 years. I really feel sorry for them, it must be terrible to have to go to such pains to try and justify your sinful life style. They have no clue when it comes interpreting the scriptures and how many of the old testament rules no loner apply today. I think we need to love gay people but what they teach is just a lie!
Peace in Christ,
Steven
Grew up Nazarene.
Son of a conservative.
Very one sided beliefs on many social issues.
Sound familiar?
I struggle with this one. I loved the lesson Dave taught at New Hope concerning homosexuals and the dialogue it's opened up. But I can't get away from the teaching that I grew up with and the fact that it resonates "natural" to me. And yet, that upbringing hasn't stopped me from having some deep, meaningful friendships with people who are gay. In fact, my partner at the wedding two weeks ago has been a friend for 8 years and a lesbian for 10.
So where does that leave me? Still willing to love and still firm in my convictions. I guess I don't see either changing anytime soon.
In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it is clear that those who practice sin in any form will not inherit the kingdom of God. I like what Paul says in verse 11.) And "were" some of you... the key word being "were"! Do not be fooled into believing that Paul is ONLY speaking of pagan temple sins. Sin is sin, it does not matter if it is done in a pagan temple or a private home.
I would also say let us love gay people as Christ loved us. I think those who hate gay people and think that God does are guilty of the greater sin.
Peace,
Pastor Steven
Interesting comments.
First, to Sam, I appreciate your gentle honesty, and I would like to add that in no way am I trying to "convert" anyone's thinking to be that of my own. I'm simply keeping the doors open for thoughtful and kind discussion. So, thank you for keeping it that way.
Second, I am not certain if anonymous Steven and Pastor Steven are the same. But, I am saddened and confused by the bitterness with which it sounds like you, anonymous Steven, are writing. You sign your comment with "Peace in Christ", but you sound very unpeaceful and rather attacking. What you've written does not sound like you are approaching this subject with love at all, but are pointing fingers and making assumptions that you seem to know nothing about. For example, how can you or anyone else possibly say that, "They have no clue when it comes interpreting the scriptures and how many of the old testament rules no longer apply today."? Are you, then, the authority on interpreting scriptures? I guess you've just left me sad and confused with your response here.
And to Pastor Steven, I would suggest that I am not being fooled into believing anything. I am praying through this and trying to go about this process with an open heart and mind. As I am led in this direction, I feel joy - maybe even from the Spirit. It feels good to "defend" this position, and I don't feel the Spirit trying to tell me that I am wrong in my thinking. Also, I'm confused by your contradiction...you said that "sin is sin", but further down you accuse those who hate gay people of being guilty of an even greater sin. So, are you saying sin is sin, or are you saying some sin is greater than others? Just looking for some clarification.
Sorry to those looking for a peaceful discussion. Perhaps I should have expected it to go this direction. I do still want to continue discussing...with open minds and with love.
Thanks to all who have responded.
Angela,
First yes Steven & pastor Steven are the same person. My first response was just a quick gut reaction to the paper by Dr. White at Soul Force. He makes a good argument and people who do not know scripture well could very easily fall for his interpretation of what he says the bible says & does not say about homosexuality.
Secondly, yes the Bible is not a book about sex. But it does talk about sexuality. It is clear that scripture does not condone homosexual sex and that the only sexual act that it does condoned is the act of sex between one man & one woman. Dr. Whites interpretations are all novel ones created by practicing homosexuals to justify their actions. In 2000 years of church history you will find no one else coming to these conclusions expect modern homosexuals and those who advocate for them. I would quote scripture here but we all know the text that plainly speak of homosexual actions being sinful.
I would also say the just being gay is not a sin. Just like being straight is not a sin. But if we as straight people go out and have sex before we are married or with someone other than our spouse that is sinful. The same goes for those struggling with same sex attractions.
Just feeling good about something does not make it right, there are many people who feel good about polygamy but that does not make it right. You seem like a very genuinely good person who is just trying to be loving and kind. I just believe that you are wrong.
You can say I'm pointing fingers or being judgemental if you like. But the truth of the matter is that I do care about gay people, maybe even more than you. As a pastor how can I let people think that what they are doing is OK in Gods eyes when it is not.
Just one more thought, when I said sin is sin I meant that. But at the same time I feel there is a distinction between different types of sin. C.S. Lewis in his book 'Mere Christianity' talks about the animal self and the diabolical self and how the diabolical self is the worse of the two. He says "That is why a cold, self-righteous prig, who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But, of course, it is better to be neither".
Please forgive me if I come across a little harsh, it is not by intention. I do care about all people and do not support violence or name calling. It is only when so called experts try to say "What the Bible says" and are so far from the truth that I get fired-up. I've studied scripture and Church history for years and what Dr. White is saying does not line up. Even as good and loving as he makes it sound.
Peace in Christ,
Steven
Read the "Shack", it does not directly address homosexuality, but what it does address is the fact that humans think they have it all figured out! Well face it people, we don't!The church as an institution, has altered and used scripture to back up its agenda for hundreds of years. Growing up very conservative, I was programmed to hate homosexual behavior...therefore being trained to hate. Jesus taught us Love behaviors, and the church has really dropped the ball on the Love teachings for so long, rather, the church has taught judgment, very well, the church has programed many of us to be the judge.
I have a dear friend that I love who is a christian gay man.(that is NOT an oxymoron) He has struggled with hate behaviors for his entire life (in and outside of the church). I have known him since he has been a young child, and he has always been afemminate. He seeks God, he prays for the lonliness to be filled, and desires to be accepted. He has not found a church that he feels loved where he can be authentic, and he has tried for years...
All I can say is we need to live in Christ, let him lead us to love and have realtionship with each other, and let God be the judge.
I got in a great discussion with a friend of mine who, like many conservative Christians, believes and lives his life as Pastor Steven. He believes that you cannot be "gay" AND call yourself a Christian. Hmmm. IF sin is sin no matter what....then can you be...say, judgemental? and be a Christian or maybe a gossip? and be a Christian? I think many of us are so busy pointing our fingers at the other guy's sin so we can feel good about ourselves. I appreciate that you are kind and loving, Ang and believe that it is those attributes that will draw people into the Kingdom of God. I've never really known anyone who was drawn into the kingdom by someone who seemed "harsh". I don't think when I'm face to face with Jesus He will say to me..."Shame on you for being kind and loving! Why on earth weren't you wagging your finger at all those gays!!!????" I kind of remember that love and kindness were fruits of the Spirit. Anyway....I have a saying that many of my friends have heard me say before, "It is my responsibility to love people, it's God's responsibility to convict them." I think when God's love speaks through us they are drawn to Him. When they are drawn to Him, they develop a relationship with Him and when they have a genuine relationship with God, they will know the "truth" and the "truth" will set them free. If God says for me to confront someone on their sin, He will open that door and I will do my best to walk through it and speak the "truth" IN LOVE. But more often....God says, "LOVE THEM! ACCEPT THEM! That's who I am. I am Love!"
steven,
i really don't think it was fair to tell angela that you care more about homosexuals than she does. i assume you have never met her.
dealing with someone else's issues are difficult enough, but dealing with a christian who is struggling with homosexuality brings thing to the next level. just a thought. many of us can hide our crap, but my gay friends don't have that luxury. we have all been given much grace my friends. i think the least we could do is extend it to everyone else, rather than putting up more barriers between them and God.
I think as Christians we need to be loving and kind. But is it loving and kind to tell someone it is OK to live in sin when we know it is not. How is that being loving and kind?
First, Birdie I never said that you could not be gay and call yourself a christian. All I have been saying is that homosexual activity is sinful. There are many believers struggling with same sex attraction.
And Dave, I never said I loved Gays more than Angela. I said I MAY, then I may not.
It is sure funny that people who want to condone homosexual sex as OK are quick to point out that those who do not share their views are not loving and kind and judgemental. But is that not being judgemental?
And just for the record I can love and except someone as a person with out having to condone their sins. Is that not what Jesus did?
Peace In Christ,
Steven
i never called you judgmental. i said i think it wasn't fair for you to say that. it was completely unnecessary and only served to hurt your point.
Please forgive me Pastor Steve, for making you feel judged. It is not my intention to do so. I am merely trying to make a point. I know that people walk in sin, but feel it is my responsibility to point them to God and let God's Spirit do that convicting. After all that's HIS job....not mine. He's so much better at it than I am. He is loving and gentle. If, as a pastor, you feel the need to point out sin, that is your perogative, I am not comfortable with that unless I feel a very strong urging from the Holy Spirit to do so. As I told my friend, just because he feels differently than me, does not make him or I wrong, it does make us different. I believe God created us differently (my friend and I) and I live my life differently and that's okay. I DO feel that Christians make the homosexual issue to much of an issue and because they have done this they have alienated far too many from the church and even from God Himself.
Sorry Dave I was not referring to you, I was just speaking in general at that point in my post. I can see how you could of thought I was. I guess that is one of the draw-backs to blogging.
Thanks to all who have responded here. You have helped me see that as a christian who does not believe it is OK to engage in same-sex sexual relations. I need to go the extra mile in reaching out to gay people in a very Christ like way. This is a issue that can divide brothers and sisters in Christ. Look at all the main line Churches! We are even starting to see more division on this issue in the Church of the Nazarene, even though we all know where the CotN stands on the issue.
Peace to All,
Steven
Thank you Birdie, I appreciate your comments. And it is true that a lot of Christians have not done well when it comes to this issue.
Peace,
Steven
Wow, I go out of town and don't check my messages for one day and find SO many responses! Amazing! I'm glad that this conversation is happening, but I also hope it is not stirring any negative feeling toward each other. We do need to remember that as Christians, whether we are pastors or lay people (whatever any of that really means...), whether we are gay or straight, whether we are one thing or another - being a Christian means that we are to love Christ and to love others...bottom line. So, even in some of the disagreements, we are all in this thing together, so let's be encouraging of one another.
A couple small things I wanted to address. The whole comment that was disputed over Pastor Steven loving gay people perhaps more than I do, was probably just an unnecessary comment which didn't help or hurt the point being made. Not sure why it was said, but it doesn't really matter - enough said about that.
Second, I don't know why, Steven, you believe that your study of the scriptures is any better than the author's study. He has studied for years and has gone to seminary - probably taking some of the same classes you or any other pastor may have taken. It's unfair to assume someone's knowledge of anything when we don't know them at all.
I would say that people are not judging you for the opinion you have regarding the practice of homosexuality. If you read back, no one was getting upset with the way Sam approached lovingly his opinion, which seems to be shared by you. I would guess it's more your assuming and perhaps attacking approach that people are upset with. In fact, I don't think we know what anyone else's opinion on this issue even is other than mine, Steven and Sam. Others seem to be desiring to hear some open mindedness, and maybe and admittance that no one can really have it all figured out.
Third, I think like many things in the Bible, it is not 100% clear what the Bible says about homosexuality, which is why there is an ongoing debate about it (and many other things). If there was one translation and understanding of the Bible, than there would be no denominations, or divides in the church. We are quite egotistical if we think that we really have all the right answers and that everyone else is just missing it altogether.
I could go on, but I will be done for now...my youngest begs for attention (in the form of tears) so I must focus my attention elsewhere. I'll be back! :)
Oh, thanks everyone, Steven, Birdie, Chel, and Dave for all your thoughtful comments. I appreciate each of you.
Angela,
Thanks for the comments.
The reason I believe, that what I believe scripture says about homosexual acts are true and why I believe Dr. White's are not. Is because he takes a partial truth and tries to build his case for homosexual sex being OK based on the fact that there were pagan temple prostitutes in that culture during that time. Scripture never condones sexual relations outside of marriage and clearly denounces same-sex sexual relations of any type. Plus it is only in recent years that anyone has come to the conclusion that Dr. Whites and other gay advocates have about the practice of homosexuality. The collective wisdom of the saints for 2000 years has always been homosexual and lesbian sexual relations are sinful and contrary to God's plan for human sexuality.
Peace in Christ,
Steven
Pastor Steven,
Did you read the part in Dr. White's writing where we discussed Galileo's discovery and how it contradicted what Christians had believed forever - even what the Bible supported?
I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions (and interpretations, I suppose), and I don't think anyone was assuming they would change anyone's mind by having this discussion. It's time to agree to disagree, I think. What it boils down to is that we approach this and every subject with love - no matter what we believe to be the truth of the matter.
I am always thankful that I am not God, and that I do not have the final say...keeps me humble. Also, it would be a pretty scary job to have be the final judge, you know? So, I just keep on praying and seeking more of His face. He's been faithful to me so far.
Thanks for the discussion.
Done and done.
Angela :)
not sure if my last post went through.
Steven: I agree with this statement 100% "Scripture never condones sexual relations outside of marriage and clearly denounces same-sex sexual relations of any type."
It amazes me that we are this passionate about homosexuality and the topic of gay and lesbians but yet there are people straight all around us who dont yet know Christ. If I wrote a blog of that, there would have been no comments.
Ang, based upon your last post on my blog on the same topic, I have to ask a question. Sine you do not thing that 2 homosexuals having sexual intimacy, is considered sexual immorality, then here is my question.
Ang, what do you say sexual immorality is? Surely you have an opinion.
I guess I've been living under a rock for TOO long - missed this whole conversation! 'Can't wait to really take some time and listen to all that is being said here.
Thanks, Ang, for getting things going!
Yes, thank you Angela! I can agree to disagree.
Peace in Christ,
Pastor Steven
thanks again ang!! You are such a blessing and I am hopeful and thankful that I have played a small part in this.
To the rest of you, Hi...my name is Dennis...I'm a Christian who loves God more than anything in this world...and I happen to be homosexual. Oohhh here's a pot stirrer...I was born this way!!
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